He seems to have become the go to authority for people to point to on why "haskell is useless because the real world is all about side effects". He seems to be honestly repeating that line of reasoning (http://youtu.be/a-RAltgH8tw?t=11m1s), but he was pretty involved in haskell at some point wasn't he? Surely he at least used the language and must realize haskell doesn't remove side effects? Am I mistaken about his involvement with haskell, or misunderstanding what he is saying?submitted by thisisalsoausername
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I've also been interviewed on the Antena 1 radio; you can listen to the interview here (I show up around minute 34).
During last few weeks I got a pretty good grip of basics of dependent types and Agda. Programming in Agda is fun but nevertheless I decided to experiment with other dependently-typed programming languages. Back in March I attempted to learn Idris from one of Edwin Brady’s presentations, but having no knowledge of dependent types I had to give up after about 30 minutes of first video. Now that I know basics of Agda I decided to give Idris another try. This time it was much simpler. Reading official Idris tutorial and doing some experiments took me about 5 hours. Below are some of my first impressions (I’m underlining that phrase to make it clear that some of these opinions may change in the future).
- Standard library in Idris feels friendlier than in Agda. It is bundled with the compiler and doesn’t require additional installation (unlike Agda’s). Prelude is by default imported into every module so programmer can use Nat, Bool, lists and so on out of the box. There are also some similarities with Haskell prelude. All in all, standard library in Idris is much less daunting than in Agda.
- Idris is really a programming language, i.e. one can write programs that actually run. Agda feels more like a proof assistant. According to one of the tutorials I’ve read you can run programs written in Agda, but it is not as straightforward as in Idris. I personally I haven’t run a single Agda program – I’m perfectly happy that they typecheck.
- Compared to Agda Idris has limited Unicode support. I’ve never felt the need to use Unicode in my source code until I started programming in Agda – after just a few weeks it feels like an essential thing. I think Idris allows Unicode only in identifiers, but doesn’t allow it in operators, which means I have to use awkward operators like <!= instead of ≤. I recall seeing some discussions about Unicode at #idris channel, so I wouldn’t be surprised if that changed soon.
- One of the biggest differences between Agda and Idris is approach to proofs. In Agda a proof is part of function’s code. Programmer is assisted by agda-mode (in Emacs) which guides code writing according to types (a common feature in dependently typed languages). Over the past few weeks I’ve come to appreciate convenience offered by agda-mode: automatic generation of case analysis, refinement of holes, autocompletion of code based on types to name a few. Idris-mode for Emacs doesn’t support interactive development. One has to use interactive proof mode provided in Idris REPL – this means switching between terminal windows, which might be a bit inconvenient. Proofs in Idris can be separated from code they are proving. This allows to write code that is much clearer. In proof mode one can use tactics, which are methods used to convert proof terms in order to reach a certain goal. Generated proof can then be added to source file. It is hard for me to decide which method I prefer. The final result is more readable in Idris, but using tactics is not always straightforward. I also like interactive development offered by Agda. Tough choice.
- Both languages are poorly documented. That said, Idris has much less documentation (mostly papers and presentations by Edwin Brady). I expect this to change, as the Idris community seems to be growing (slowly, but still).
- One thing I didn’t like in Idris are visibility qualifiers used to define how functions and datatypes are exported from the module. There are three available: public (export name and implementation), private (don’t export anything) and abstract (export type signature, but don’t export implementation). This is slightly different than in Haskell – I think that difference comes from properties of dependent types. What I didn’t like are rules and syntax used to define export visibility. Visibility for a function or datatype can be defined by annotating it with one of three keywords: public, private, abstract. If all definitions in a module are not annotated then everything is public. But if there is at least one annotation everything without annotation is private. Unless you changed the default visibility, in which case everything without annotation can be abstract! In other words if you see a definition without annotation it means that: a) it can be public, but you have to check if all other definitions are without annotations; b) private, if at least one other definition is annotated – again, you have to check whole file; c) but it can be abstract as well – you need to check the file to see if the default export level was set. The only way to be sure – except for nuking the entire site from orbit – is annotating every function with an export modifier, but that feels very verbose. I prefer Haskell’s syntax for defining what is exported and what is not and I think it could be easily extended to support three possible levels of export visibility.
- Unlike Agda, Idris has case expressions. They have some limitations however. I’m not sure whether these limitations come from properties of dependently typed languages or are they just simplifications in Idris implementation that could theoretically be avoided.
- Idris has lots of other cool features. Idiom brackets are a syntactic sugar for applicative style: you can write [| f a b c |] instead of pure f <$> a <$> b <$> c. Idris has syntax extensions designed to support development of EDSLs. Moreover tuples are available out of the box, there’s do-notation for monadic expressions, there are list comprehensions and Foreign Function Interface.
- One feature that I’m a bit sceptical about are “implicit conversions” that allow to define implicit casts between arguments and write expressions like "Number " ++ x, where x is an Int. I can imagine this could be a misfeature.
- Idris has “using” notation that allows to introduce definitions that are visible throughout a block of code. Most common use seems to be in definition of data types. Agda does it better IMO by introducing type parameters into scope of data constructors.
- Idris seems to be developed more actively. The repos are stored on github so anyone can easily contribute. This is not the case with Agda, which has Darcs repos and the whole process feels closed (in a sense “not opened to community”). On the other hand mailing list for Idris is set up on Google lists, which is a blocker for me.
All in all programming in Idris is also fun although it is slightly different kind of fun than in Agda. I must say that I miss two features from Agda: interactive development in Emacs and Unicode support. Given how actively Idris is developed I imagine it could soon become more popular than Agda. Perhaps these “missing” features will also be added one day?
First of all I read all posts that try to compare those three frameworks and I am aware that some libraries are interchangeable.
I started with Yesod yesterday and I read 50% of the official 1.2 book. The problem with this book is that it aims to be more reference than a tutorial, which is not a bad thing but I would really like to have a complete tutorial that explains everything incrementally.
I think Yesod is really nice and I love the compile time checks. I also enjoy the scalefolding ,yesod add-handler and hot reloading / recompiling. I was able to get write some simple html responses, but I am completely lost if I want to try out the more advanced stuff. It seems that 1.2 broke a lot of things which means the nice advanced topics are outdated and the type errors are a little bit mysterious to me.
I also couldn't find one complete example.
So I thought I should probably look at the other options too. I mainly want to compare the core libraries because most libraries like heist or hamlet are loosely coupled and can be used in all of those frameworks.submitted by MaikKlein
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